Diskussion - Fliegerwelle 2016 - 40k

[Schwertnarr]

LOL jeder hat mindestens zwei Flugzeuge, irgendeine Formation und dann das Appendix.

Nur CSM bekommt die Einträge:
"- Helldrake"
"- Appendix"

 

[Tenshi]

Die CSM tun mir Leid...
Aber ich bin echt gespannt auf das Buch. Ich werde es mir wahrscheinlich holen Plus noch Voidraven und nen Razorwing. Verflucht seist du GW!

 

[Vaeleria]

Dafür würd ich vielleicht erstmal abwarten, was genau das ganze Kann x3

 

[Tenshi]

Deswegen ja wahrscheinlich! Ich such schon lange nach nem Grund die Flieger halbwegs sinnig aufs Feld zu kriegen!

 

[Barnabas-Basilius]

Also ohne mich jetzt genau mit de neuen Buch und dessen Inhalt befasst zu haben (was ich auch nicht brauche, denn die Promo nervt schon genug):
Es leuchtet mir nicht ein, warum man genau JETZT ein Buch braucht zu Fliegerkram. Es gibt seit Jahren nunmehr Regeln, die das Fliegertum abdecken bei 40k. Ok, nicht perfekt aber vorhanden. Dass genau jetzt mit diesesm echt physikalisch unausgedachtesten Modell (SM) eine neue Fliegerwelle eingeleitet werden soll ist total hohl. Ich meine, dieser SM-Flieger ist noch viel schlimmer als die Stormkartoffel die noch entfernt als Hubschrauber durchgehen kann wegen der Düsen nach unten. Aber dieses Ding, urgh.... Und das soll dann das neue Fliegerbuch rechtfertigen. Ok, da ist noch der halbherzige Orkgussrahmen auf dem vorhandenen Dakkajett... Nicht der Rede wert.

Egal, kauf ich halt gute alte Modelle, wie Rhinos und Blood Angels und Space Marines (am Boden).

 

[Ankhalagon]

LOL jeder hat mindestens zwei Flugzeuge, irgendeine Formation und dann das Appendix.

Nur CSM bekommt die Einträge:
"- Helldrake"
"- Appendix"

Macht nix, der ist als Fighter jetzt eh regeltechnisch kaputt/in der neuen Phase Freiwild.

 

[Armarnis]

Erstmal gucken ob sich das überhaupt durchsetzt

 

[Pries7]

Da mein eigener Orden eher auf Kapseln und Flieger spezialisiert ist (da sie kaum noch andere Fahrzeuge besitzen), finde ich den neuen Jäger klasse... Besser als den landspeer tempestus. Nur das Cockpit sieht echt hässlich aus.

Nur blöd, wenn ich jetzt schon nicht mehr mit meinen Modellen hinterher komme zusammen zu bauen und zu bemalen... das nervt mich schon etwas bei GW...

Wenn die neuen Regeln dazu führt, dass die Flieger wieder besser werden bzw angenehmer zum spielen, wäre ich echt glücklich, da derzeit es echt manchmal nervt, da die einfach nichts reißen und man die nur als schweber noch etwas von Nutzen sind.

 

[Nemesor Sekani Runihura]

Wenn die neuen Regeln dazu führt, dass die Flieger wieder besser werden bzw angenehmer zum spielen, wäre ich echt glücklich, da derzeit es echt manchmal nervt, da die einfach nichts reißen und man die nur als schweber noch etwas von Nutzen sind.

Darüber würde ich mich auch freuen. Bei Warseer ist das Buch aber schon größtenteils geleakt.
Flieger werden generell schwächer.
Viele Flieger sogar komplett nutzlos. Flieger mit der Bomber Rolle profitieren z.B. nur wenn sie Bomben abwerfen, einige Flieger (z.B. Dark Eldar) haben aber Bomber, die keine Bomben haben, diese Modelle ziehen nur Nachteile aus dem Buch. Jäger haben die gleichen Regeln wie bisher, (plus kleinere unrelevante Formationsboni), aber -1 BF gegen Bodenziele (außer Jetbikes/Grav). Jagdbomber können nichts richtig.

Ich verstehe GW nicht, bei dieser drastischen Regelumstellung hätte man die Profile anpassen müssen, damit die Flieger ihren Rollen gerecht werden, aber das ein Dark Eldar fliegen mit Schablonen-Waffen als Jäger deklariert wird (aber keine Schablonen auf Flieger schießen darf) und deren Bomber keine Bomben hat, ist einfach lächerlich.
Auch die Verkaufszahlen werden schlecht sein, anstatt Flieger zu pushen werden sie durch die Bank schlechter 🙁

Einzig die Space Marines kriegen mal wieder nen Buff, Flieger die Schweber sind, haben jetzt OBjective Secured.

 

[Makaku]

Ändert sich denn auch etwas bei Fliegenden Monströsen Kreaturen?

 

[Pries7]

Soweit ich weiß nicht... Monster bleiben gleich...

Mal schauen, was die ganzen Manöver können...

Derzeit wirkt es so, als wollte GW das selbe Prinzip wie die der Fraktionen Kontingente auf Flieger setzen... Stein, Schere und Papier Prinzip.
Das führt schon vermehrt zum Einsatz von Fliegern, wenn man die einsetzen möchte.
Wenn man z.b. einen storm Raven einsetzt, muss man mindestens einen Fighter dazu holen, um den vor feindlichen Jägern zu schützen. Um noch einen Bonus zu bekommen, braucht man noch mehr Flieger für eine Staffel.

Ich bin echt gespannt, wie sich das entwickelt.

 

[Tenshi]

Erstmal hat der DE Bomber eine Bombe, die kann auch gut Aua machen. Das Ding ist halt nur einfah zu teuer.
Steht denn schon fest dass der Razorwing nen Jäger wird? bzw sind SR von den Formationen schon bekannt?
Wird es neue SR für die Flieger geben? Also ala Fliegerass nur sinnig bepunktet?
Wird es vllt neue Profile geben?

 

[Deleted member 21581]

Nein. Nein. Ja. Vllt. Ja.

 

[Nemesor Sekani Runihura]

@Tenshi: Kann sein, dass ich mich verlesen habe, ich kenne Dark Eldar nicht.

Hier mal die Informationen auf die ich mich bezogen habe. Quelle Warseer Forum:

On Attack patterns:

2 planes:

->
>-

*one gets +1bs (against appropriate target) and +1 to jink save.

3 planes:
-----
>>>
-----
* Flat out and Shoot/bomb (appropriate target) at full bs

>--
-->
>--

* Tank hunter vs appropriate target / Reroll to pen rolls with bombs

->-
->-
->-

* Shooting/Bombs Ignore cover vs appropriate target


4 planes:

-->--
---->
-->--
->---

* one gets +1bs (against appropriate target) and +1 to jink save. + all get Tank hunter vs appropriate target / Reroll to pen rolls with bombs and Shooting/Bombs Ignore cover vs appropriate target

>-->
-----
>-->

* 4++, IWND, Interceptor (on all)

->-
->-
->-
->-

* Pick one unit that all 4 planes have LoS to. PERMANENT preferred enemy against ANY unit of it's kind. (I.E: You pick ONE Tactical squad, You get permanent Preferred Enemy on ALL Tactical squads for the rest of the battle).

All planes in the attack pattern must be from same formation or attack wing.

Attack wing: 2-4 planes (all same). Flyers can now be bought in units of 1-4 per slot, but they only count as attack wing if they are 2+. Attack wings may use Attack patterns. One flyer gets "Wing leader", wich is a free "Fighter ace" equivalent. Fighter ace, as we know it, is not in the book, instead, it's a campaign bonus. (There are 3 bonuses to randomize from on the wing leader table. The campaign fighter ace has 6, and you can earn all 6 by becoming a Top Gun (Kill 30 flyers during a campaign without dying)).

NOTE: Flyers from same attack wing do not follow rules for squadrons, or count as a single unit, nor do they need to be in coherency. (unless they want to benefit from attack patterns.)

The flyer detachment consists 1-3 attack wings. All from same codex/faction. (Formations count as attack wings).
So now, you can have a pair of any flyer as a separate detachment!

I.E: on attack wings.

2-4 razorwings is an attack wing.
2-4 voidravens is an attackwing.
1 razorwing + 1 voidraven is not an attack wing, and thus, can't benefit from attack patterns.
3 razorwings + 1 voidraven, the razorwings is an attack wing, the voidraven isn't.
However, there's a 2 Razor-2 voidraven formation, where they all count as the same attack wing, and thus benefit from attack patterns.

On appropriate targets: flying targets for fighters , ground targets for attack craft.

The dog-fight rules only mention Flyers. So I doubt about FMC.

Haven't looked up the vendetta (even though I have a vendetta myself. I HAVE 12 FLYERS!)

There are 6 flyer missions/Scenarios, and a mini-campaign. There's the Flyer detachment, but no rules for turn 1 entry (unless there's something in the missions.). So,unless you play craftworlders with FW, and have a pair of lynxes, who may start on the table, all-flyers is a no-go.

Wing leaders are pretty much on par, but slightly worse, than the old fighter aces. There are different for every army, (even for different flyers in some cases), but they are on par with +1bs vs appropriate target.

Bale flamer does what Jon Snow knows: Nothing. The whole dog fight phase, is; You roll to see who's the attacker, the attacker picks one of his flyers (Usually a fighter), and one of the enemies (Usually a
bomber, unless facing DE shenanigans), and both must be in reserve. Then you roll dice and bluff to decide distance between the flyers, facing (Gives bonuses. If a non-fighter outmanoeuvres an enemy, it may shoot at full BS, otherwise only snap. Fighters may always shoot at full BS.), Facing affects which facing you hit and what weapons you may fire (Suddenly, rear mounted weapons got relevant), and then, who shoots first (And only shoot! No Vector strikes! Templates can't hit flyers!). If one goes down: 2-5 It's ded! All passengers ded to!, 1: Opponent places the downed flyer in downed flyers deployment zone, no closer than 1" from units, then roll for crash and burn. on a 6; same, but you place your downed flier in the opponents deployment zone.

1 dogfight per turns, so even if you have 5 planes and your opponent 3, only 1 per side will dogfight per turn.

Necrons are not as fast as eldar, but fast, however, they're not manoeuvrable, slightly more than the flying furrie containers.

Their formation lets you "Teleport" vehicles like their transport fliers teleport footsoldiers.

Fighters are the only ones who get to keep skyfire, but get -1bs vs ground. (the rest only snap at flyers)

Originally Posted by Brightstar
Did you find The Vendetta from the book?

Time to start smashing the panic button; It's not in!!!

Also; Bombers differ in being worse at dogfights and getting other bonuses from attack patterns.

Also!;

1; The 2-flyer attack pattern gives bombers +1st on their bombs, not +1bs. And only Bombs, no other weapons.

2; Attack patterns start once you end a movement phase in that pattern, and lasts until the end of your next movement phase. Thus; Bombers won't benefit from their attack pattern bonuses (I.E: ignore cover) on their bombing runs when they arrive from reserve, AND, almost all their attack pattern bonuses only apply to their bombs. Bombers truly got the short stick here.

3: Stunned/shaken fliers also temporarily lower their Pursuit/Agility to 0.

Well, With the book in hand, here's a fun thing on dogfights (other than that you can kill off enemy fliers in reserve, and that the dogfight phase is less of a phase and more of a quick mini-game); If you have flyers in reserve, and your opponent doesn't, you gain air superiority, which gives you +1 OR -1 in reserve rolls (Your choice) AND gives your opponent -1 to reserve rolls. If you have the flyer detachment, this bonus is increased to +2/-2.

Und hier die Parts zu den Dark Eldar:
Frage:

What if anything changed for the razorwing jetFIGHTER(which is clearly a better bomber atm) and voidraven BOMBER(which is a better fighter atm) what is their formatin bonus?
Thanks for the info

Antwort:

Well they're both horrible now. The razor wing lost -1 BS when shooting its missiles and lances at the ground. The Void Raven which was the better anti-flyer and now it doesn't have skyfire.

GW thinks the razor wing should fire blast missiles and poison at other flyers.

What a shame, the Razorwing was one of the few decent units DE had and now they're garbage. The Void Ravem went from irrelevant to a complete joke.

 

[Deleted member 21581]

Das spricht doch mal für einen Luftüberlegenheitsjäger für das AM.
Klingt gut.

 

[Fenris89]

Gibt's schon Infos zu den Tau und space wolves fliegern?

 

[Deleted member 21581]

Das einzige ist ein Nebensatz in dem es heisst, dass die SW-Transporter zusammen mit den Necrons extrem unwendig sein werden.

 

[Tenshi]

Danke Nemesor. Ich geh denn mal in die Ecke und weine

 

[Warmaster]

Vector Strike in der Dogfight Phase für Heldrakes...

Inq. Serge - Warseer

[..]

ALSO: Double-checked the rules for heldrakes; They DO have a dogfight-only vector strike!!! It's just near impossible to get it in, especially against anything that can outmanoeuvre a flying croissant. (The heldrake's very agile, almost as a Razorwing. It is quite slow however.) (EDIT: It has a better probability against overconfident players with fast flyers, but not against the sensible ones). (In case anyone's wondering, it's in addition to whatever weapon it can or can't shoot in a dogfight. And it has still has its ordinary vector strike on the field).

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showt...-Summer-2016&p=7623316&viewfull=1#post7623316



Zum Ork-Flieger und Vendetta

Considering that the vendetta's not even mentioned in the book, and FW's already making a vendetta upgrade kit (have one myself); I think It'll go back to FW-only.

The Orks; The tellyporta is an awesome weapon (Very strong and penetrative), it's just lacking in range. And it can make stuff "Disappear". Orks have 2 different wing leader tables, and they have 2 formations: 1 with 1 new flyer with the KFF, and 3 other flyers of ANY ork-kind, and makes them tougher in the correct attack pattern. The other consists of 6-12 fliers (3 wings), makes one wing better, and have access to a larger attack pattern.

And come on people, Unlike me, most of you do not use an average of 3-4 flyers in your 1850 pts armies, and even if you did, the sky isn't falling down. Sure, the formations do not give voidravens 10" stD blasts, but then again, the formations are free and the attack patterns are free-er, we all saw how pissed people got when marines got a free disintegration gun, making attack patterns and formations too good would make people go crazier than usual. It's just a compensation for the lack of footsoldiers. The dogfight subphase and the new roles and stats make flyers something more than poorly manoeuvred hard-to-hit skimmers. They're more "gamble"-y, less overpowered (not that most of them where overpowered, just presumed to be), and still not mandatory. They can still be ignored, they're just a little bit more difficult to dodge now.

Stormhawk might be mighty, but, against equally good players, the razorwing (With DL) will defeat it more times in a dogfight than the other way around. Not 9 of 10 times, nothing is that good, but more in line with 6, at most 7, of 10 times*. Nothing is invincible in dogfights, some are just better. Dogfights are very balanced. And quick. It's a bit of a high risk high reward "game theory"-duel, something for the gambler in us.

*(Does not mean it will kill it every time it wins)

The one for the flier is an upgraded version from one taken for big meks in MA right?

Don't know what the ordinary does. This one has set strenght and ap.

[..]

Also; Who plays with more than 1 voidraven? Most of the bombers are rarely taken in multiples. Most of the flyers are rarely taken in multiples. Sure, I rarely play DE without my 3 RJF, and I occasionally add in 1 VRB, but most people do not spam flyers, especially not the same flyer. Thus, you will, most likely, never meet a proper attack pattern, and if you do, the opponent will be lacking in ground forces.

And the loss of skyfire, Considering that most flyers jink a lot, it's not that much of a loss.

And for -1bs against ground targets; Skimmers and jetbikes do not count as ground targets! Thus, 3 RJF in attack pattern can get Tank hunter when shooting Monoliths. And ignore cover against jetbikes!

In my opinion; It's a wonderful book, and I love it.

 

[Deleted member 21581]

Eine Liste welche Flieger welche "Klasse" sind, gibts noch nicht, was?