Du verwendest einen veralteten Browser. Es ist möglich, dass diese oder andere Websites nicht korrekt angezeigt werden. Du solltest ein Upgrade durchführen oder einen alternativen Browser verwenden.
Nun stelle ich mir die Frage, ob ich die Bluthunde brauche. Da ich immer 1-2 volle Trupps Bloodcrusher wie auch Flamer dabei habe, hätte ich genug Einheiten mit hoher Bewegung auf der Platte. Oder denke ich da falsch?
Letztlich verlor er gegen Tyraniden und wurde dann "nur" vierter.
Dazu gibt es einen Einblick des Spielers zu seinen Überlegungen:
Derrick: I’d playing Daemons for the better part of 8th and 9th – until Nephilim ruined it for me and I switched to other factions. When the book was announced for release and I realized it was going to make the cut off for this GT tough, I switched gears from running Deathguard back to proper Daemons. Because this event had player placed terrain rules that required ruins to be 6” apart *in order to be more equitable to knight sized models), I looked and saw that a monster mash style list would be able to get around the board well so started with that.
My first test lists were pure nurgle, running 3x Soulgrinders and even 2 GUO at some points. Plaguebearers felt more like a tax than a resource, and I went back to the drawing board and looked at what I had on the shelf/pile of shame. While I was used to running 10-15 Beasts of Nurgle, I opted out of this route and considered the Drones as well. Ultimately, I saw that Be’lakor was very much a bad matchup for so many armies (Harlequins especially), and I decided that I would use him in a Supreme Command in order to get access to all the Warpstorm abilities. This also meant I was not taking his or any Warlord trait – but that my other detachment could be mixed Daemons. I opted for a patrol to lessen the Plaguebearer tax, because I didn’t own or couldn’t get the pinks/blues/brims in time.
Two units of PBs gave me enough backfield obsec that wasn’t going to melt to indirect or incidental attacks from the things that could reach them, but if anything substantial ever got to them, they would die fast. I knew that I was playing a game of table my opponent with maximum pressure- and I had a clock of 4 rounds to do it, so I could score enough primary to stay ahead. This was highly intentional, as the lists I was expecting to be at the top tables at the end of day two were Necrons, Nids, Quinns, and Tau. I utilized both the GUO with the Corruption relic and Be’lakor to put on early pressure or go for first turn charges that put me in good positions. Since they can’t hide, I was using a strategy of threat saturation, where opponents had 2 Soul Grinders and 2 big Daemons intheir face to force them to split shots – which is much less effective. I usually deep strike the 2 units of 5 Flamers and the Khorne Daemon Prince to help provide follow up pressure.
As it was a 32 player 5 round event, only one player would end up 5-0, so I didn’t focus as much on the scores as I did just getting a win, which meant I scored in the 80s for most of my wins. However I faced Isaac and his Tyranids in the last round. One of my 5 pre-GT tests was vs. this list and it beat me handily that first encounter. Leviathan Nids just overpowered me with better movement, more obsec, better shooting, psychic, and melee even. There wasn’t a single phase of the game that I could outclass him in, and his list also meant I was strapped for good secondaries. I took Reality Rebels for all of my matches, and for most I took a Psychic secondary (Interrogation or Warp Ritual), but couldn’t risk it against Nids with their -1 to cast and many Denies.
Because he had 93 wounds for No Prisoners and I’ve seen him add more models with strats, I figured that would be around an 8-9 point secondary but I was destroyed by overwhelming firepower and a ton of Mortal Wounds for which demons have no protection. Be’lakor was cursed with terrible dice rolls, such as failing a re-rolled 6” charge and then whiffing into warriors with 5 missed attacks and then failing ALL of his saves on the strike back. I shot his Harpies with the Soul Grinders and just failed to ever do much to them. The Flamers came down, and did some damage and picked up some RnD points for me- but ultimately had little impact other than killing a few Gaunts/Gargoyles. Finally, the GUO whiffed into the hive tyrant and was murdered for his time, despite being nearly fresh. The dice rolls were horrendous over and over, but my opponent also just played the game a lot better, with an oppressive army that countered mine in almost every phase of the game.
In terms of general list thoughts, my plan for Warpstorm was mostly to get at least 3 for turn 1 to get a -1 to hit with Descending Shadow, and then on turns 2-5 I would hope for 4 and try to use both the Nurgle and Hhorne ones that do Mortals to nearby units on a 6. This was highly effective against many armies such as Harlequins and Necrons. I had the entropic Knell on my poxbringer, and it was ineffective at doing anything for all 5 games. Would not recommend it. The Khorne Deamon Prince was clutch in a few games, but Belakor was murdered quickly in most of my battles so was not able to pop out from Warp Logus to get 6” charges like I had planned.
The GuO killed Silent King in one round by himself – Shooting, Psychic, and charge strat was helpful. Most games he lived, and was able to bully points in mid. Almost any other greater Daemon would have probably done better though. Flamers were mostly responsible for psychological warfare advantage as everyone was so afraid of them, as to make a lot of bad moves to avoid them.
Soulgrinders were amazing, did work in every game and lived for most all of them. Because of the terrain rules, they were able to get around to most places. Nurgle was key here and they tanked melta/fusion shots well and almost all other anti tank that were thrown at them. Sword is much better than a claw. Finally, Despoilers of reality is not as bad as people say- on missions like Scouring it was basically an auto 8, with a chance for a max.
I myself will admit my list is jank – partially built on what I owned and could paint (the Be’lakor was painted in two hours the night before the event, and I got compliments on stream for it). Pinks might have been better than PBs for some matchups- the PBs did have some use, but overall the troops for Daemons are not great at holding spots in the open, regardless of which ones you use. Nurglings are pure trash now, which saddens me because I own 30. They need obsec back, and/or getting to fill slots. I tabled almost all my opponents quickly and without hesitation, but when facing Nids – I had no chance.
Copyright liegt beim Autor bzw bei Goonhammer!
Was mich ein wenig gewundert hat, ist dieser Passus:
"In terms of general list thoughts, my plan for Warpstorm was mostly to get at least 3 for turn 1 to get a -1 to hit with Descending Shadow, and then on turns 2-5 I would hope for 4 and try to use both the Nurgle and Hhorne ones that do Mortals to nearby units on a 6."
Er hat ja ein gemischtes Detachment, d.h. er dürfte die Khorne oder Nurgle eigenen Warpsturmeffekte gar nicht nutzen, oder?
Oder ist es so, dass Belakor in seinem eigenen Detachment alle gottspezifischen Warpsturmeffekte freischaltet?
Apologies for being a day late – I’m recovering from a bout of COVID! Nephilim continues to be very popular, but it’s fair to say that this week mostly feels like we’ve hit …
Letztlich verlor er gegen Tyraniden und wurde dann "nur" vierter.
Dazu gibt es einen Einblick des Spielers zu seinen Überlegungen:
Derrick: I’d playing Daemons for the better part of 8th and 9th – until Nephilim ruined it for me and I switched to other factions. When the book was announced for release and I realized it was going to make the cut off for this GT tough, I switched gears from running Deathguard back to proper Daemons. Because this event had player placed terrain rules that required ruins to be 6” apart *in order to be more equitable to knight sized models), I looked and saw that a monster mash style list would be able to get around the board well so started with that.
My first test lists were pure nurgle, running 3x Soulgrinders and even 2 GUO at some points. Plaguebearers felt more like a tax than a resource, and I went back to the drawing board and looked at what I had on the shelf/pile of shame. While I was used to running 10-15 Beasts of Nurgle, I opted out of this route and considered the Drones as well. Ultimately, I saw that Be’lakor was very much a bad matchup for so many armies (Harlequins especially), and I decided that I would use him in a Supreme Command in order to get access to all the Warpstorm abilities. This also meant I was not taking his or any Warlord trait – but that my other detachment could be mixed Daemons. I opted for a patrol to lessen the Plaguebearer tax, because I didn’t own or couldn’t get the pinks/blues/brims in time.
Two units of PBs gave me enough backfield obsec that wasn’t going to melt to indirect or incidental attacks from the things that could reach them, but if anything substantial ever got to them, they would die fast. I knew that I was playing a game of table my opponent with maximum pressure- and I had a clock of 4 rounds to do it, so I could score enough primary to stay ahead. This was highly intentional, as the lists I was expecting to be at the top tables at the end of day two were Necrons, Nids, Quinns, and Tau. I utilized both the GUO with the Corruption relic and Be’lakor to put on early pressure or go for first turn charges that put me in good positions. Since they can’t hide, I was using a strategy of threat saturation, where opponents had 2 Soul Grinders and 2 big Daemons intheir face to force them to split shots – which is much less effective. I usually deep strike the 2 units of 5 Flamers and the Khorne Daemon Prince to help provide follow up pressure.
As it was a 32 player 5 round event, only one player would end up 5-0, so I didn’t focus as much on the scores as I did just getting a win, which meant I scored in the 80s for most of my wins. However I faced Isaac and his Tyranids in the last round. One of my 5 pre-GT tests was vs. this list and it beat me handily that first encounter. Leviathan Nids just overpowered me with better movement, more obsec, better shooting, psychic, and melee even. There wasn’t a single phase of the game that I could outclass him in, and his list also meant I was strapped for good secondaries. I took Reality Rebels for all of my matches, and for most I took a Psychic secondary (Interrogation or Warp Ritual), but couldn’t risk it against Nids with their -1 to cast and many Denies.
Because he had 93 wounds for No Prisoners and I’ve seen him add more models with strats, I figured that would be around an 8-9 point secondary but I was destroyed by overwhelming firepower and a ton of Mortal Wounds for which demons have no protection. Be’lakor was cursed with terrible dice rolls, such as failing a re-rolled 6” charge and then whiffing into warriors with 5 missed attacks and then failing ALL of his saves on the strike back. I shot his Harpies with the Soul Grinders and just failed to ever do much to them. The Flamers came down, and did some damage and picked up some RnD points for me- but ultimately had little impact other than killing a few Gaunts/Gargoyles. Finally, the GUO whiffed into the hive tyrant and was murdered for his time, despite being nearly fresh. The dice rolls were horrendous over and over, but my opponent also just played the game a lot better, with an oppressive army that countered mine in almost every phase of the game.
In terms of general list thoughts, my plan for Warpstorm was mostly to get at least 3 for turn 1 to get a -1 to hit with Descending Shadow, and then on turns 2-5 I would hope for 4 and try to use both the Nurgle and Hhorne ones that do Mortals to nearby units on a 6. This was highly effective against many armies such as Harlequins and Necrons. I had the entropic Knell on my poxbringer, and it was ineffective at doing anything for all 5 games. Would not recommend it. The Khorne Deamon Prince was clutch in a few games, but Belakor was murdered quickly in most of my battles so was not able to pop out from Warp Logus to get 6” charges like I had planned.
The GuO killed Silent King in one round by himself – Shooting, Psychic, and charge strat was helpful. Most games he lived, and was able to bully points in mid. Almost any other greater Daemon would have probably done better though. Flamers were mostly responsible for psychological warfare advantage as everyone was so afraid of them, as to make a lot of bad moves to avoid them.
Soulgrinders were amazing, did work in every game and lived for most all of them. Because of the terrain rules, they were able to get around to most places. Nurgle was key here and they tanked melta/fusion shots well and almost all other anti tank that were thrown at them. Sword is much better than a claw. Finally, Despoilers of reality is not as bad as people say- on missions like Scouring it was basically an auto 8, with a chance for a max.
I myself will admit my list is jank – partially built on what I owned and could paint (the Be’lakor was painted in two hours the night before the event, and I got compliments on stream for it). Pinks might have been better than PBs for some matchups- the PBs did have some use, but overall the troops for Daemons are not great at holding spots in the open, regardless of which ones you use. Nurglings are pure trash now, which saddens me because I own 30. They need obsec back, and/or getting to fill slots. I tabled almost all my opponents quickly and without hesitation, but when facing Nids – I had no chance.
Copyright liegt beim Autor bzw bei Goonhammer!
Was mich ein wenig gewundert hat, ist dieser Passus:
"In terms of general list thoughts, my plan for Warpstorm was mostly to get at least 3 for turn 1 to get a -1 to hit with Descending Shadow, and then on turns 2-5 I would hope for 4 and try to use both the Nurgle and Hhorne ones that do Mortals to nearby units on a 6."
Er hat ja ein gemischtes Detachment, d.h. er dürfte die Khorne oder Nurgle eigenen Warpsturmeffekte gar nicht nutzen, oder?
Oder ist es so, dass Belakor in seinem eigenen Detachment alle gottspezifischen Warpsturmeffekte freischaltet?
Apologies for being a day late – I’m recovering from a bout of COVID! Nephilim continues to be very popular, but it’s fair to say that this week mostly feels like we’ve hit …
Interessante Idee. Leider ist der Nurgle Effekt Wave of Sickness nur auf 12", und Nurgle ist nicht grade für Geschwindigkeit bekannt, außer man nimmt Plague Drones, aber auch die haben nur M10". Khorne hat 24" Reichweite mit seinem Effekt.
Ja, da hatte ich auch Bedenken. Allerdings wird die Fähigkeit ja zu Beginn der Schussphase gezündet. Das heißt man hat sich zweimal bewegt und eins davon war vermutlich mit Advance. Selbst mit Plaguebearern kann der Gegner sich da in seinen 1-2 Bewegungsphasen nicht soweit bewegt haben, wenn er außer Reichweite bleiben will.
Und der Vorteil ist ja, man weiß genau ob man genug Gegner in Reichweite ist. Sonst nutzt man die Warppunkte halt einfach für was anderes.
Die 12" werden ja auch von Belakro selbst gemessen. Der sollte mitten im Getümmel sein nach seinem Move.
Dazu noch die Soulgrinder, wie wohl auch jede Runde 8" nach vorne wollen. Sowie der GUO selbst.
Auf den Poxbringer geht er gar nicht ein - außer am Ende: Lohnt sich nicht.
"Total Command Points: 5/8"
Fängt man mit 8 Punkten an?
Interessante Idee. Leider ist der Nurgle Effekt Wave of Sickness nur auf 12", und Nurgle ist nicht grade für Geschwindigkeit bekannt, außer man nimmt Plague Drones, aber auch die haben nur M10". Khorne hat 24" Reichweite mit seinem Effekt.
Das sehe ich tatsächlich gar nicht als Problem. Runde 1 will er ja eh das -1 to hit zünden und ab Runde 2 sollten alle Nurgle Einheiten die möchten im Mittelfeld sein. Denke mit der obigen Liste kann man locker das gesamte "Niemandsland" abdecken, wenn Be'Lakor und die Grinder etwas aggressiver pushen kommt man mit den 12" für die MWs auch in die gegnerische Aufstellung.
Die abgedeckte Fläche sehe ich daher nicht als Problem, eher die Unzuverlässigkeit wirklich bei relevanten Einheiten auch eine 6 zu würfeln. Hängt aber sicher auch stark vom Gegner ab und wie viele Einheiten er so stehen hat.
Die abgedeckte Fläche sehe ich daher nicht als Problem, eher die Unzuverlässigkeit wirklich bei relevanten Einheiten auch eine 6 zu würfeln. Hängt aber sicher auch stark vom Gegner ab und wie viele Einheiten er so stehen hat.
Das war auch mein Problem mit diesen Fähigkeiten. Aber vlt sollte ich da mal umdenken und einfach mal drauf losspielen.
Bei AoS packt ZB auch jeder im Moment die Purple Sun ein, weil die auf die 6 ein Modell ausschaltet. Und bei Iron Hands hat man auch mal den 6+ fnp gefeiert.
hab jetzt mal kurz den Dämonencodex überflogen par kurze Fragen:
1. Es hieß doch mal, dass mixed Dämonen Detachement Nachteile bei der Warpsturmtabelle haben soll. Ist der einzige Nachteil, dass man in nem mixed Detachement "nur" nicht auf die Effekte der speziellen Gottheit Zugriff hat? Und habe ich in einem reinen Khorne Detachement immer noch Zugriff auf die Effekte des Ungeteilten Chaos?
2. Ist das -1 Moral und -1 auf Zermürbungstests durch die "Dämonische Entsetzen" Regel kumulativ? Wenn nicht, verstehe ich den WL Trait (oder das Relikt weiß ich grad nicht) ich glaube bei Khorne nicht, dass exakt den gleichen Effekt hat, wie die o.g. Regel? Zumindest im deutschen Codex.
3. Wenn das kumulativ ist, kann ich dadurch dann die "Schockreichweite" in einem reinen Legiones Daemonica Detachement durch Absenken verbessern?
Dann noch 2 kurze Frage zu Datasheets.
@Smashcaptn sprach hier mehrfach einen "untötbaren" Bloodthirster an. Ich seh zwar für den ganz nette Defensiv Buffs aber nichts was den jetzt so OP machen soll. Hab ich da was übersehen?
Von vielen werden derzeit die Flamer ja als no Brainer gesehen. Screamer find ich auch richtig gut, aber Flamer finde ich jetzt zwar nicht schlecht, wären aber nicht unbedingt meine erste Wahl. Was macht die denn so stark?
Ich hätte jetzt auch mit zumindest einer Unit Beasts of Nurgle gerechnet und finde z.B. auch unsere Befestigungen wie den Skull Altar oder den Nurgle Baum nicht schlecht, gerade weil die auch schocken können, obwohl sie jetzt ja angreifbar sind.
1) genau, mixed Detachment, dann haste nur Zugriff auf die nicht Gott spezifischen WST Fähigkeiten.
2) + 3) Du kannst je nach Moralwert im Niemandsland zwischen 3 und 9 Zoll nahe am Gegner schocken, sofern Du genug Modifikatoren auf die Gegnerische EInheit bekommst, dank Relikte, Psi und dem -1 von der Armee... (es ist soweit ich weiß, nicht kummulativ) ähnlich wie bei den Chaos Knights!
BT: Mit nur 8 LP Verluste pro Phase, T8, 5+ Feel no Pain und dank dem Relikt auf 5+ pro getöteten Fein ein LP zurück (bis zu 6 pro Phase) macht ihn extrem haltbar!
Flamer: Die haben S5 von Haus aus und sind auf S6 buffbar, dazu mit D6+3 Schuss sowie T4, 3 LP und 3++ vs Ranged sehr haltbar.
1.) Das wird echt oft gefragt. ja, wenn du mischst, hast du keine Gottspezifischen. Ausnahme ist Belakor in einem Supreme Detachment, dann hast du alle. Die Ungeteilten hast du IMMER.
2.) Kumulativ. Beides. Aber nicht durch die gleiche Regel.
3.) ja.
Bloodthirster: Exalted, dass er nur 8 Wunden pro Phase haben kann, 5er Save after Save als Warlordtrait gibt ihm theoretisch 6-7 mehr Wunden im Schnitt. Und als Relikt gibt es den Talisman, dass du für jedes getötete Modell auf einer 5+ ein LP zurückbekommst. "Untötbar".
Die geringen Punktkosten für das Flamerprofil und den 3er gegen Beschuss. Buffbar sind sie auch, deswegen sind se so gut.
Danke euch, so hatte ich es auch verstanden aber zur Sicherheit nochmal gefragt, das hätte man im Codex auch etwas deutlicher klar machen können
Ok, d.h. 3 Units mit Dämonischen Entsetzen innerhalb 6 Zoll gibt trotzdem immer noch "nur" Malus von -1.
1 Unit mit Dämonischen Entsetzen = -1 + o.g. Relikt/ WL Trait mit gleichem Text wie Dämonisches Entsetzen nochmal - 1 und ggfs. wenn es noch ne entsprechende Psikraft gibt nochmal -1 dann gleich Malus von -3, da gleicher Effekt aber unterschiedliche "Quellen"?
Ich meine auch, dass es zu Ignorieren von LP aus verschiedenen Quellen mal n FAQ gab, dass die Thematik ähnlich behandelte und zum gleichen Schluss kam, aber wenn ihr habt würde mich aktuell die Begründung interessieren bzw. Regelquelle warum dämonisches Entsetzen nicht kumulativ ist.
Hört sich zwar richtig ab, aber ich finde selber die Begründung im Regelwerk grad nicht
Some abilities affect models or units in a given range – these are aura abilities. A model with an aura ability is always within range of its effect. The effects of multiple, identically named aura abilities are not cumulative (i.e. if a unit is within range of two models with the same aura ability, that aura ability only applies to the unit once).
Heute bin ich langsam... aber ja, es ist eine Aura die Regel der Daemons und RonnyAltona hat es gepostet: Aura-Fähigkeiten stacken nicht, wenn sie denselben Namen haben^^
www.goonhammer.com
ja, wenn du mischst, hast du keine Gottspezifischen. Ausnahme ist Belakor in einem Supreme Detachment, dann hast du alle. Die Ungeteilten hast du IMMER.
